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Does it matter how an Operator operates?
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Kazd
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Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrissim wrote:
Hi Kazd, when you say it like that it does sound bad. I canít really pinpoint one single thing, Iíve mentioned the good music, nice size hall with a good dance floor, the place had a nice feel about it and the people were friendly and approachable. At some venues I have a problem asking men to dance if they are sat at tables talking, but here as the chairs were all facing the dance floor I knew if a man was sat there then he wanted to dance, if he wanted to chat he would have been outside of the main hall, so that made it easier to ask. So for me if I come away from a venue happy and that means having lots of dances then I will return and I left happy. Plus another late night local event (local for me) is good.


Ok, so I understand, but doesn't how an organizer operate make any difference to you? As I've mentioned a number of times, I travel a lot and support lots of venues and always welcome new events. But with so many established organizers struggling at the moment I would rather support good organizers than bad ones.

I tried MBE Altitude event and reviewed it on here, and whilst the venue was spectacular the event wasn't as advertised (the two top rooms shut at 11.30pm) and there was no mention of the huge parking fee. I didn't go to this event because it clashed with Twisted but it seems the organizer has done the same thing here. No bar, no outside dancing, the blues room in the foyer etc. And as it had very low attendance I'm struggling to understand why anyone would go back.

If you're saying it's friendly and local, well isn't that what Danny offers at DYD too - there doesn't seem to be any comparison to me?

This is a bit of a hobby horse of mine as I am so passionate about my dancing! I'm all for new organizers and events being created. But if they don't deliver what they promise then if they continue to get support it could badly effect established organizers who do a good job. Then where woud we be? If the competition in Winchester from MBM means DYD get fewer numbers on their regular freestyles because people are dancing less and less these days, then it affects all of us - and this is even more the case when Kevin used to both Taxi and DJ for Danny and has now set up in competition with him!
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Andy McGregor
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Joined: 07 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kazd wrote:
Ok, so I understand, but doesn't how an organizer operate make any difference to you? As I've mentioned a number of times, I travel a lot and support lots of venues and always welcome new events. But with so many established organizers struggling at the moment I would rather support good organizers than bad ones.
As an organiser myself I get the feeling that people are being more selective where they spend their cash. They are looking for value for money. This doesn't mean that people aren't spending their money, it means that organisers need to make sure they deliver value and consider ALL the costs for their customers. Those costs include the prices at the bar, parking, ticket prices and anything else you can think of associated with the event - not just the price of a ticket.

Then there's the most valuable commodity of all, time. Where will you spend your time? All the money in the world will not gain you more time. Organisers need to make sure they deliver a package where customers think it's 'time well spent', no matter what the price. And that includes 'cut price' events. Nobody is going to spend their time at a poor event, just because it's cheap or FREE!
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Steve
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kazd wrote:

If you're saying it's friendly and local, well isn't that what Danny offers at DYD too - there doesn't seem to be any comparison to me?
There are usually lots of factors that people use to decide which nights to attend. I think Di and people who know me would describe me as maybe, just possibly not DYD's biggest fan. So I to would give an alternative a chance to iron out those startup gremlins.
Kazd wrote:

This is a bit of a hobby horse of mine as I am so passionate about my dancing! I'm all for new organizers and events being created. But if they don't deliver what they promise then if they continue to get support it could badly effect established organizers who do a good job. Then where woud we be?
The victims of that wonderful thing called customer choice ?
Even in this economically stressed time, there are plenty of busy MJ nights and the freestyles that always sold out are still selling out. Good nights will survive.
Kazd wrote:

If the competition in Winchester from MBM means DYD get fewer numbers on their regular freestyles because people are dancing less and less these days, then it affects all of us - and this is even more the case when Kevin used to both Taxi and DJ for Danny and has now set up in competition with him!
Lets not forget that DYD teachers were originally taught by another organisation, who DYD then promptly set up in competition to. Also lets not forget that DYD set up at Totton community center in competition to Mojive and Ceroc who were both already operating there. And set up a night at Minstead in competition to Ceroc who already used the venue.

I'm not quite sure what your implying regarding "Kevin" (who I maybe know by sight, but otherwise don't know), but it sounds all a bit "Pot. Kettle. Black." to me.
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Kazd
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Joined: 14 May 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve wrote:
Lets not forget that DYD teachers were originally taught by another organisation, who DYD then promptly set up in competition to. Also lets not forget that DYD set up at Totton community center in competition to Mojive and Ceroc who were both already operating there. And set up a night at Minstead in competition to Ceroc who already used the venue..


I actually agree with all that, and as it happens I'm not a big supporter of DYD. The age range as an average at the occasional freestyle I've been to is older than I'm used to and the ability levels aren't that high, that's not to say that people aren't having fun and enjoying themselves. I'm also not a big fan of the music Danny plays. But I do think there is a difference in starting in competition with someone who used to be a friend rather than just an organization you may have worked for. Evil or Very Mad
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Andy McGregor
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kazd wrote:
But I do think there is a difference in starting in competition with someone who used to be a friend rather than just an organization you may have worked for. Evil or Very Mad
I'm afraid this happens everywhere. It's happened to me and it's happened to many of my friends who run jive companies. In fact, I'm starting to realise it's the way things are in the real world. It's also a way of finding out who your real friends are - a very painful way Sad
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Southern Jiver
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Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 1656
Location: New Forest

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kazd wrote:
If the competition in Winchester from MBM means DYD get fewer numbers on their regular freestyles because people are dancing less and less these days, then it affects all of us - and this is even more the case when Kevin used to both Taxi and DJ for Danny and has now set up in competition with him!

Kevin responded to this on Facebook but gave permission for it to be reproduced here :
Kevin wrote:
"I used to go to Danny's events. I actually employed Danny's services, before he employed mine, when i ran the DUSK 2 DAWN event , where i asked him to spare some time to DJ through the night, (he was great as, ever). Danny gave me my first real break by lending me some gear to set up my first night! Danny knew i had set up on my own, when he asked for me to TAXI for him, even coming along once to see how i was doing. When Winchester Guildhall was being renovated, Danny had been ousted to the smaller room, and in order for him not to loose his crowd, asked if i would DJ in the bar to help maintain numbers over this troubled time. I did and was well received, (i think)."

I felt it was only fair that Kevin present his side of the story.
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Nicky
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Joined: 22 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I the only person who is completely fed up with so-called dance politics?....

We are all individuals, have different tastes and expectations, and have various levels of commitment to our dancing. As such, some of us will feel compelled to try out all types of venues, run by all manner of organisers, and others will simply stick to the devil they know best. Who is to say what's right or wrong?

Most established organisations undoubtedly have their stalwart army of regulars who attend most of their events. What we seem to be discussing here is the handful of nomadic dancers who are willing to travel and try out many different venues. Quite simply, if they find what they are looking for at a particular venue, chances are that they'll return, if they don't find it, they will look elsewhere. No amount of muck throwing will change things; anyone with any sense will hand over their hard earned to the organiser who gives them the best night.... Simple as!!! Smile
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Philsmove
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Joined: 25 Jul 2009
Posts: 65
Location: Bristol

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicky wrote:
Am I the only person who is completely fed up with so-called dance politics?....

Smile

In a word NO
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Andy McGregor
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Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 393
Location: Brighton/Shoreham by Sea

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philsmove wrote:
Nicky wrote:
Am I the only person who is completely fed up with so-called dance politics?....

Smile

In a word NO
I totally agree with Nicky & Philsmove.

I think the dance politics thing is started by the organisers themselves. They start saying 'organiser x used to be one of my crew, don't go there'. And they also create a culture of 'numbers', as in 'what were their numbers like when you went last week', 'their numbers are down' and 'our numbers are up', etc.

Dancers just want to dance. They don't want to hear organisers running down other organisers. Sometimes, as dance teachers, we can't help it, like the mechanic who says 'who worked on this last' or the hairdresser who says 'who cut your hair last'. We find ourselves needing to correct bad habits created by poor teaching - it's difficult to do that without sounding critical of their last teacher who said 'there is no footwork'.
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Steve
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy McGregor wrote:
Philsmove wrote:
Nicky wrote:
Am I the only person who is completely fed up with so-called dance politics?....

Smile

In a word NO

Dancers just want to dance. They don't want to hear organisers running down other organisers. Sometimes, as dance teachers, we can't help it, like the mechanic who says 'who worked on this last' or the hairdresser who says 'who cut your hair last'. We find ourselves needing to correct bad habits created by poor teaching - it's difficult to do that without sounding critical of their last teacher who said 'there is no footwork'.


Dance politics is like ordinary politics, you'll get those who are interested, even passionate. And you'll get those who simply don't care (and 'just want to dance').
The fact that people keep replying to these kind of threads not just here, but elsewhere as well shows there are a number of dancers who are interested in the 'scene', and not just the bouncy bit Smile.
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Nicky
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tv guy wrote:

Quote:
As for the dance politics.. I guess anyone that leave any coments on here is getting involved in the political side of things really?..and you know you all love it


I can't deny that the whole discussion/debate side of things is very satisfying, but there is a world of difference between somebody giving their opinion on a particular event, and somebody who makes derogatory posts about an event that they didn't even attend. I'm all for free speech, and have no objections to anybody having their say about an organiser, but this should've been done as a seperate topic, under the Jiver Soapbox section of the forum, and not off the back of somebodys review of a freestyle.....

Whilst everybody has been very quick to throw accusations re affiliations to one group or another, nobody has stopped to ask themselves why Kazd saw fit to question a fellow forumites honest review, to the point where she/he all but said how could the poster possibly have had a good night. Smacks of dirty tactics to me, and that is what I mean when I say i'm fed up with dance politics. I just hope that Chrissim and others will continue to post, as there are many of us who appreciate reading reviews of nights and events that we weren't able to attend ourselves Confused
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Jiveonaut
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Location: Wiltshire

PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My two pennies!!! Very Happy

Penny 1: I do think it matters how organisers do things (not just in danceland, but in the real world too, but as this is a dance forum I'll stick to dance related things!). If someone says they're going to provide something, then they should provide it. If they can't, then say so. Its when they say one thing and do another that unhappiness can creep in. For example, an event that says "open 'til 2am" but which closes two of its three rooms at 11.30 is perhaps being a bit disengenuous to say the least. Alternatively there may be good reasons: for example no al fresco dancing because its raining, or the room closed because the power failed etc. Its when an organisor knows beforehand that two out of three rooms will be closed by the venue at 11.30 but doesn't mention it that people can feel cheated.

Penny 2: I like it when conversations get spicy on here. More please! I do agree though that an 'innocent' post of a review shouldn't be hijacked by those with axes to grind or points to score. Though that said the review can spark the debate in the first place. Cue SJ and his riot police!!!

Penny 3: I can see why KAZD queried the original review: to me it did come over as "nothing worked/it was empty/it shut but it was great". It is quite possible to have a great time when it all goes wrong or doesn't deliver.

Penny 4: If an organiser wants to "defend" himself on here, he should do it himself. Kind as it was of SJ to lift Kevin Bennett's facebook entry and stick it on here, unless there's a good reason this shouldn't really happen. Especially as in this case Kevin said on facebook he couldn't be bothered to respond! We're all old, bold and ugly enough to look out for ourselves. And silence can send a powerful message as well as a 1000 words.

And the Grand prix is on, so I'll come back later!
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Welshy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would you like a lesson on counting Jiveonaut? Laughing
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Nicky
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it's any secret that I love it when discussions get a bit juicy, my beef is only in the fact that it should be done in the right way.... I'm no fan of the Wilton freestyles, but i'm not going to hijack somebody elses review in order to grind my axe.... As somebody who has refrained from reviewing any freestyles after being shouted down and accused of all sorts simply for giving my honest opinion, I don't want to see the same thing happen to others!

Chrissim gave a warts and all review, then summarised by saying that she still had a good night, IMHO, exactly what a good reviewer should do. Now, i'm sure that the things that were 'wrong' with the night would've spoilt my experience had I been there, but I wasn't and therefore am not in a position to judge.

Jiveonaut wrote:


Quote:
If an organiser wants to "defend" himself on here, he should do it himself. Kind as it was of SJ to lift Kevin Bennett's facebook entry and stick it on here, unless there's a good reason this shouldn't really happen. Especially as in this case Kevin said on facebook he couldn't be bothered to respond! We're all old, bold and ugly enough to look out for ourselves. And silence can send a powerful message as well as a 1000 words.


Completely agree; we all need to stand up and be counted!
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Southern Jiver
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jiveonaut wrote:
If an organiser wants to "defend" himself on here, he should do it himself. Kind as it was of SJ to lift Kevin Bennett's facebook entry and stick it on here, unless there's a good reason this shouldn't really happen. Especially as in this case Kevin said on facebook he couldn't be bothered to respond! We're all old, bold and ugly enough to look out for ourselves. And silence can send a powerful message as well as a 1000 words.
Point noted, Jiveonaut. In this case I felt it appropriate for both sides of the story to be presented. If only one side is given, it can cause unbalanced viewpoints. However, perhaps your point has creedence and I should give silence a chance in future. Confused
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