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Will adding more emphasis to Blues dilute Jive?

 
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Michael H
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:00 pm    Post subject: Will adding more emphasis to Blues dilute Jive? Reply with quote

"I have added Blues as an equal partner to MJ on the Forum. This is because I, personally, would like to see more Blues in the area, alongside the existing Modern Jive. It was prompted by someone questioning a Blues freestyle review (see below), as to whether it should be on a Jive Forum. If there is sufficient resistance to this change, then I will consider changing it back, although Blues was already included before under the Other Dance Styles section. I will move the thread discussing this to here."
- SJ


Strange we thought this was a Jive forum - the clues in the title!

Michael & Janice
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Southern Jiver
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael H wrote:
Strange we thought this was a Jive forum - the clues in the title!
Michael & Janice

You are quite right of course but watch for the name change coming shortly, the Southern Jive and Blues Forum. Smile
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Michael H
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a crying shame John. Another sad sad dilution of what the vast majority of us started with, and want to do - Modern Jive.

The slow strangulation of Modern Jive started a few years back with people determined to change it into other dance styles, but they appear to have come and gone. Significant numbers of experianced danceers no longer MJ, but where are the other styles? If you go to MJ freestyle what are the vast, vast majority dancing - MJ.

If we are not careful we could be left with nothing.

Michael & Janice
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JB69
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with Michael H. It is a shame that blues is getting involved with MJ. I want to go to a MJ and dance to happy inspiring songs, not listen to music to slit your wrists to with people that have forgotton how to smile. Keep them seperate. i have no issues with people who want to do whatever dance they want to do, just not at a place where it is labled modern jive.

Just my opinion. Confused
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Southern Jiver
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I used to think like that too (see earlier posts of mine on the Forum). However, as has been discussed many times, MJ is an amalgamation of parts of many other styles. I'm not quite sure about the Tango part myself although there seems to always be some Tango tracks played at MJ events. Likewise, there are always a few slower tracks played and while it's all very well to do slow Jive to those slower tracks, wouldn't it be more fulfilling to be able to switch to a Blues style to make the most of those sort of tracks? I always felt slow Jive was a bit naff so relished the opportunity to learn how to dance using a slower, more interpretive style. Don't panic, guys, this Forum will always be MJ focused as MJ is my primary dance. However, I see a place for Blues to add to my Jive, not replace it.
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Southern Jiver
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JB69 wrote:
I have to agree with Michael H. It is a shame that blues is getting involved with MJ. I want to go to a MJ and dance to happy inspiring songs, not listen to music to slit your wrists to with people that have forgotton how to smile.
JB69, I guess you haven't attended much in the way of Blues events or you wouldn't be spouting a common misconception like that. Some of the Blues dancers I have met are the happiest, craziest, friendliest people you could ever hope to meet. I totally agree that "slit your wrists Blues" is no fun at all and it's lucky that it's not that kind of Blues that I am espousing here. I, personally, don't get on with that kind either.
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Andy McGregor
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really do not have a problem. But only because I think that MJ danced to blues music is still MJ.

There is no such dance as "blues". There is dancing to blues music. That dance can be MJ. It can also be other dances. I will continue to hold that opinion until someone can tell me how blues works as a dance.

On the subject of MJ being an amalgamation of other dances. This is also incorrect. MJ, like other dances, has moves in common with other dances. It's the timing of those moves that changes from dance to dance. Because it's the timing that defines the dance.

The reason MJ can be danced to blues music is because it's a broad church. MJ can be danced to many kinds of music and in many different styles. That's what makes the dance flexible and fun Very Happy

N.B. Do not believe the smoke and mirrors claim that "Our stylish dance, sometimes referred to as 'Modern Jive', is a fusion of Salsa, Ballroom,
Hip Hop, Tango and Jive." Especially as ballroom is actually Waltz, Quickstep, Tango, Foxtrot and, in some countries Viennese Waltz. The thing that defines ballroom dances is that they are all in closed hold - how can you fuse an exclusively closed hold dance with a dance where you also dance open hold? And how can you fuse a 3/4 time dance like Waltz with a 4/4 time dance at all? And hip-hop? Now they are being silly ...

Rant? Moi? Twisted Evil
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Southern Jiver
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy McGregor wrote:
I really do not have a problem. But only because I think that MJ danced to blues music is still MJ.
You are welcome to your opinion, Andy but you are wrong. Very Happy There is a world of difference between MJ and the sort of Blues that I have been doing, admitttedly not "Traditional" Blues but I guess the sort that some call Indigo. It is not "Ceroc Blues" by the way. The differences lie in the timing, the musicality, the freedom from specific moves, the ability to dance to background instruments or vocals and the overall feeling of the dance. As I have said elsewhere, it's about movement to the music rather than moves to the music. I am not going to get into another discussion about it with you here as you have your own ideas and they don't agree with mine. The addition of a type of Blues dancing to a Modern Jive dancers repertoire I only see as a positive and a way for a Jiver to improve and extend their dancing.
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Andy McGregor
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Southern Jiver wrote:
Andy McGregor wrote:
I really do not have a problem. But only because I think that MJ danced to blues music is still MJ.
You are welcome to your opinion, Andy but you are wrong. Very Happy
I would love to be wrong. It would be fantastic to have a clearly defined dance that's specifically for blues music. It's a great shame that I am right Wink

However, we inhabit a dance world where many people accept an argument that you can't define Modern Jive. Adding another dance that is not clearly defined isn't going to be a problem for those people*,




*Those people are also wrong.
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Andy McGregor
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Southern Jiver wrote:
the ability to dance to background instruments or vocals and the overall feeling of the dance. As I have said elsewhere, it's about movement to the music rather than moves to the music.
This is musicality. Musicality is something you grow into once you've mastered the basics of a dance. This is true for just about every dance.

When compared to Latin dances like rumba or ChaChaCha with footwork covering a whole bar, I believe the basic footwork of MJ makes it easier to dance musically.

However, there does seem to be a moves culture in MJ that completely ignores the joy of musicality. Dancers coming for the moves culture will be blown away when someone teaches musicality at a workshop called "blues". The charm is the music and the musicality, not the dance.
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Southern Jiver
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been re-reading this thread and I can't quite see why there was the intial opposition to what I proposed. It's not going to change anyone's dancing, it's not really going to dilute anything as there's always been a Blues section on the Forum, it shouldn't affect anyone really as there are practically no Blues Freestyles in the area. So, I'm a bit nonplussed by the reaction. However, perhaps getting more educated about Blues would help people understand about it so I suggest reading the post here.
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Elliott
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still gobsmacked (and delighted) at your change of heart re modern blues, John. I can't get over seeing you grinning from ear to ear at blues events when you used to be so grumpy about it!

To Andy: of course there is such a thing as "blues dancing". There's been a lot of such things but in a clearly connected tradition starting in about 1890. Of course Ceroc pinched the word "blues" just as they pinched the word "jive" for their totally unrelated dance styles.

Happily, the modern blues world has moved on from the ghastly slow MJ of a few years ago. In some quarters it has been strongly influenced by traditional blues, in others not.

Because of where the dancers tend to come from, modern blues looks a little like jive at extension but in close hold and intimate hold, it is nothing like jive. In MJ, the dancers are always moving in opposition. In MB they are always moving in concord (as also in tango).

Traditional blues is characterised by a pulse, which is sometimes taught in MB but mostly not. It also has a delicious quality of syncopation to go with syncopated music i.e. rather than the leader and follower moving instantly together, the follower follows a moment later with a sort of ker-chunk. I've not come across anyone teaching this in MB, but I wish they would.

Mostly (certainly in the London area) trad blues teaching is in the hands of swing dancers. Sometimes, unfortunately, Lindyhop is as visible in supposedly trad blues as MJ was in Ceroc blues. I have even heard dancers tell me in all seriousness that blues grew out of Lindy! It's encouraging to know there's as much confusion "over there" as on this side of the fence.
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Elliott
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, it would be wonderful if there was enough blues going on to justify name change for the forum!
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Southern Jiver
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elliott, maybe there will be enough interest in Modern Blues sometime but I've been promoting Modern Blues in the Southern area for about 2 years now and while there has been progress, it has been pretty slow. It has been helped by Sara White holding her Blues Retreats in Bournemouth and also doing a workshop in Totton, Boscombe and a couple in Devizes and also by people allowing me to DJ Blues rooms at their freestyles (next one Nov 22nd at ALN, Portsmouth - plug). But still so many people ask me where they can get regular classes and I can't really tell them as I tend to go to Oxford or Cambridge for workshops and freestyles there. I think it will come but it just takes a long time and a lot of perseverance.
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Last edited by Southern Jiver on Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Elliott
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did I overhear that Daniel has plans in Boscombe or did I imagine that?

In glad to say that in my new neck if the woods in Kent, things are a lot bluesier. Or were. Sadly two venues have closed recently.
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